Horse Shit

Then we got into whether using Ivermectin to treat Covid-19 is “stupid” — enough to qualify for a Darwin Award.

A: Good one 😂 and I am okay with suicide by horse deworming meds. Survival of the fittest includes weeding out stupid.

Karl Lembke: You mean the drug that’s used to treat parasitic infections such as river blindness, that has been used both topically and orally to control head lice, and whose discoverers were awarded half of the 2015 Nobel Prize in medicine?

A: Karl Lembke: not the scientists, it does great against parasites. However, humans taking it off label to fight a virus for which there is an effective verified vaccine are overdosing and killing themselves. I am okay with eliminating that kind of stupid.

Karl Lembke: Evidence? I hope you’re not citing the Rolling Stone story.

G: Out of curiosity Karl, and silly memes aside, are you advocating using an anti parasitic medication to treat a viral respiratory infection? Or to protect from getting a viral respiratory disease? Would you actually advise people to use a medication that way if you didn’t have studies to point to that said it works ?

Karl Lembke: Not quite. I’m advocating not dismissing it out of hand before the evidence is in, not name-calling the people who think it might work, not dismissing it as “horse medicine”, especially when it’s manifestly used in humans as well. So far, the results of tests are mixed enough that anyone claiming certainty is almost certain to be wrong, and demonstrating nothing more than their brainwashing.So the people who are 100% certain that it’s a miracle drug against Covid are brainwashed, and the people who are 100% certain that it’s use is suicidal are also brainwashed. Members of both groups of people are unreliable witnesses and best ignored.

G: Your answer is quite reassuring! I will point out that much of the ridicule of people who are self-medicating with Ivermectin comes from the enormous increase in Ivermectin poisonings that are presenting at hospitals. If the news reports are correct, these poisonings are coming from Ivermectin purchased at feed stores and Veterinary supplies, and not formulated for human ingestion.

Karl Lembke: “If”. If you cite news reports that parrot the Rolling Stones article, you will be lumped in with the unreliable witnesses.

Karl Lembke: I have lots of other comments about the topic of Ivermectin.

Off label uses: I don’t think such uses are to be dismissed out of hand. My heart valve was an off-label use. For some reason, certain allergy medicines prevent bone pain during immunotherapy for the cancer I have, so it’s a pre-medication. I don’t think it’s an off-label use now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it once was.

Ivermectin kills Sars viruses, or which Covid is one. It is reasonably safe in humans, so it seems reasonable to try it. Unfortunately, lots of things that cure disease causing organisms in vitro don’t work in vivo. This may be one example. (I’ve seen posts claiming that Cannabis kills cancer cells, and implying or outright stating it is a cure. If it is, there are lots of people I can think of who should never develop cancer of any kind. I suspect this is a case of something that works in vitro but not in vivo.)

Several observers are reporting good results with the drug. Several analysts are reporting the observation studies are of very low quality, and the results don’t constitute proof. There may be a pharmacological property, other than killing the virus, that increases the odds of survival.

In the case of hydroxychloroquine (HCQ), one property that I’m not sure has been investigated is its effect on cytokine release syndrome (CRS). I believe some of the damage caused by Covid is attributed to CRS, and a drug that blocks it, or even tones it down, may enhance survival. I don’t know how thoroughly this was examined for HCQ. (And I wonder how it compares in safety and efficacy with drugs used to control CRS in CAR-T cell treatments for people with my cancer.)

Several patients are unwilling to wait for the high-quality studies to come in. I hope people who decide to exercise a “right to try” have the intelligence to go through channels that will give them the drug in proper doses and formulations.